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Why Ketosis Diets Will Fail: The Paleo and Keto Manifesto

By Robyn Openshaw | Jan 03, 2018

Why Ketosis Diets Will Fail: The Paleo and Keto Manifesto

The most disturbing trend in Wellness these days is that most people have no idea what to eat.

When choices were fewer, 100 years ago, how to eat for good health was so much clearer.

Americans have been so steeped in the diet fads, that they’re now thoroughly confused about food.

Recently, I mentioned to a Millennial that when I was a kid, we didn’t have bottled water, and she said, with a shocked look on her face, “Then how did you get any water to drink?!”

Similarly, modern people think that in order to eat, you have to follow one of the diet fads. A strange feature of life in 2018 is the need to align with a programmed “food cult,” as I call them.

Thanks to some strange cultural and market forces I do not believe to be particularly helpful to our overall health, food has become much like religion:

Many don’t know how to eat outside of what their food tribe, congregation, or pastor tells them, and every few years, many people convert to the new cult.

“I’m Paleo,” people say–as if identifying with a coat of arms.

I’ve been asked countless times: “What diet do you eat?”

Ketosis Diet Fads

Several years ago, I wrote a detailed blog post on why the Paleo Diet was a fad, wouldn’t last, and why it would eventually be supplanted by a new fad aggrandizing fat rather than protein.

Paleo followers wrote murderous emails and comments.

Now those same people, it seems, are rabidly promoting the Ketogenic Diet.

I felt I was fair to the Paleo Diet. We were friends, to a point. At least the Paleo cult banned processed food, even while glorifying animal flesh foods and strangely vilifying entire classes of foods that hominids and humans have eaten for 3.4 million years:

Legumes. Grains. Fruits.

Now, it seems, we’ve gone from the proverbial frying pan to the fire.

Why Ketosis Diets Will Fail: The Paleo and Keto Manifesto

Over-eating fats, glorifying the state of “ketosis,” and inventing many new “[Insert Diet Fad Name]- Approved” packaged foods will not serve us well.

As I predicted would happen from many live stages on my lecture tours earlier in this decade, the new “golden child” in the diet industry is, predictably, fats.

(It turns out over-eating protein saved us from exactly nothing. Following historical trends, then, a new diet fad must be born, to instruct the Western world how to eat.)

(And, fat isn’t really a “new” golden child. It’s a recycled golden child, since Atkins already did it, and the Ketogenic Diet isn’t a lot different from that diet that many published studies showed were not beneficial to our health.)

I’m sure I’ll get hate mail by going on record for this, too:

Over-eating fats, glorifying the state of “ketosis,” and inventing many new “[Insert Diet Fad Name]- Approved” packaged foods will not serve us well, will not reverse the obesity epidemic, and will not reduce the many disease epidemics either.

The least profitable foods—the ones that grow in the ground and on trees—are the least likely to get any significant attention from the food cults.

The most profitable foods, those in packages, made with “proprietary processes” and stamped with “Paleo Friendly” or “Keto Approved,” also have the lowest vibrational energy, the lowest micronutrient levels, and lowest fiber, and the least ability to prevent disease.

I’ve invited some of my friends–medical doctors, researchers, and authors who have watched the diet industry’s chokehold on the American diet with growing alarm–to weigh in on the latest fad now often called “Keto.” Their quotes are included in this blog post.

I believe this latest ketosis diet will be chased off the stage by both research that was already done and published at the end of the reign of the Atkins diet fad–plus additional research that will come–showing how negative the health effects are of overeating animal products, fats in general, and repeatedly manipulating the body into a state of “ketosis.”

I also predict that five years from now, the same people advocating the “ketogenic diet” currently will be onto a new fad, promoting it, instead.

Here’s the thing: the diet industry is big business. Tens of billions of dollars a year. It’s in collusion with the packaged food industry.

These wealthy industries aren’t going anywhere. And they are a treadmill, needing a new fad every few years, to replace “Paleo Approved” products with “Keto Approved” products.

Why Are There so Many Diet Plans?

The diet authors and processed food industries pivot, pose, and preen–based on whatever is popular. Not, you should understand, what’s actually good for you.

Elimination diets. The cabbage soup diet. The green smoothies diet. The werewolf (lunar) diet. The grapefruit diet. The tapeworm diet. The blood type diet. The apple cider vinegar diet. The cotton ball diet. The Wheat-Elimination Diet. The Alkaline Diet.

The authors of some of these books are friends of mine. Good people.

And I’m not innocent. I wrote The Green Smoothies Diet, after all. (I threw that in, to be fair. Someone would have brought it up.) And I’m willing to throw my own book on the pileup, to make an important point.

(As a sidenote, though, may I share why I wrote that book? What I actually wrote wasn’t a “diet” at all. It was about how throwing lots of superfoods and greens in a blender is an answer to our nutrient insufficiency, in an age where we want all our food to be “fast.” But the publisher insisted on naming it The Green Smoothies Diet. “Write whatever you want,” they said—”but we WILL call it a ‘diet,’ and if you refuse, we’ll find another author to write it.” That book has sold more copies than my other 14 books combined. Which already makes one of my points: diet books sell.)

So, aggrandizing one food class, or one food, as if it has magical properties that will save everyone from every disease, is good for business.

Vilifying a class of foods, and teaching people how to avoid them, is big business, too, and fundamental to the diet industry.

(To do either of these things, you generally have to cherry-pick data, ignoring a great deal of evidence to the contrary.)

I play tennis competitively, and on the court recently, one of my tennis teammates was doubled over. It was only 9 am, so I asked:

“You seem really tired, what’s wrong?”

She said, “I’m on the ketogenic diet, and I’m exhausted. My husband just got really ‘shredded’ on it, but I don’t feel good at all.”

You can lose weight in countless ways. Atkins, Ketogenic, you name it, they’re banning whole categories of foods, and they’ve all been shown, in studies tracking what the dieter actually eats, to be clever forms of calorie restriction.

(Many evaluations of the popular diets since Atkins have shown that since no one wants to eat unlimited protein, or unlimited fats, dieters end up eating fewer calories.)

Vilifying Carbs

But your body has used carbohydrates–70 percent carbohydrates, on average–since the dawn of time. It’s the food your liver requires.

Carbohydrates aren’t bad, just by virtue of being carbohydrates.

The talk about “carbs” is virtually meaningless, since most foods are high in carbohydrates.

You’ve got simple and complex carbs, whole-food carbs and refined-food carbs. You’ve got “carb” foods full of important soluble or insoluble fiber–or both.

You’ve got wonderful “carb” foods that are extremely high in micronutrients (hundreds of different vitamins, minerals, enzymes, phytonutrients)–and others that are worthless, and harmful, with virtually no micronutrients.

(In fact, it should be noted that “proteins” and “fats” as classes of foods, while they have important properties needed for health, are almost always foods with little or no dietary fiber, and very little micronutrient density as well. Since our gastrointestinal cancers epidemic is largely due to lack of fiber, and lack of micronutrients, in the “standard American diet,” eliminating carbs seems a terrible idea, for cancer prevention, cancer treatment, and especially related to colorectal cancers.)

Truly, lumping all the foods containing “carbohydrate” into a single class makes little sense.

Because even if we narrow it down and look at two foods high in simple sugars as an example, a bagel and a banana are very different foods.

Comparing Carbs: a Banana vs a Bagel

Bananas and bagels are both ‘carbs’

The bagel is Roundup-sprayed (twice!), stripped of fiber and lacking any real micronutrients, gluey, and will slow your digestion. It has nothing to offer you besides a gluten reaction and a blood-sugar and insulin spike.

A banana, though, has soluble fiber and dozens of nutrients, including potassium and magnesium. It is a high-vibration food that contributes to longevity.

Calling both of these foods “carbs” is misleading—virtually useless, in fact.

Eliminating or severely restricting carbohydrates from the diet as both the Paleo and Keto diets do is especially problematic since foods considered “carbs” are the foods highest in fiber and micronutrients, which are linked, in thousands of studies, to reduced disease risk.

Fasting

Fasting is part of the ketogenic diet, and fasting is a great idea.

(However, to put the logical fallacy to rest, just because fasting is part of the ketogenic diet, and fasting is good for you, does not mean the ketogenic diet is a healthy, sustainable way to live, or even a good way to lose weight.)

Fasting is research- and time-tested. Many cultures of the world have engaged in periods of not eating, for physical purification as well as spiritual benefits, and many research studies show fasting to be beneficial for human health.

But the benefits of fasting aren’t necessarily related to the state of “ketosis,” where starvation supposedly forces fat burn. (See Dr. Alan Christianson’s quote, below, about whether “ketosis” is even what the Keto diet claims it is.)

I’m far more interested in the induced state of autophagy from a 12-hour fast, or for a longer fast lasting several days.

I’ve water-fasted (no food, only water) for 7 days, 9 days, and 12 days, in the past two years.

Why? Because in autophagy, when the body has no food, it scavenges aberrant cells, and immune function goes into high gear, gobbling up cancer cells, yeast, mold, byproducts of metabolism—generally and specifically cleaning house.

I believe fasting is one of the most powerful things you can do for longevity and to avoid chronic disease. Thomas Lodi, M.D., a Columbia-trained medical doctor, presents all his patients with information on water fasting, and tells them it’s the single most powerful thing they can do, in their cancer treatment.

Compare that to the ketogenic diet plan, where you may be advised to drink acidic coffee full of butter, and a plate of bacon–which is unsustainable, unpalatable long-term, and artery-clogging, as well as devastatingly low in chlorophyll, oxygen, raw enzymes, phytonutrients, vitamins, and minerals.

Are Low Carb Diets Good For You?

Let’s take a look at some of the myths around the diet industry’s concept that carbs make you tired, sick, and fat.

Ari Whitten and Wade Smith, MD’s book, The Low Carb Myth, says this:

“The Carbohydrate Theory of Obesity [an attempt to blame fat gain on carbohydrates and sugars] is based on numerous scientific inaccuracies, omissions of data, and countless instances of data cherry-picking.”

One study showed the Paleo Diet to be most essentially defined, by its followers, as eating more vegetables. If that’s the case, we’re all friends here.

The Paleo diet did ban white flour, processed sugar, and chemicals in your food.

Unfortunately, most people embracing it eat even more animal products (protein and fat) than the average American does, and that is an important note, in pointing out the problems with the Paleo diet.

Legumes, fruits, and unprocessed grains have been part of healthy diets worldwide since the dawn of man 3.4 million years ago, as shown by recent research on early hominids at the University of Utah.

If you don’t want to eat legumes and whole grains, or if you’re reactive to legumes due to a damaged microbiome–fine, you can probably also stay healthy eating really clean forms of animal protein.

But keep in mind that it generally takes 20 pounds of plants to bring 1 pound of animal food to market.

If vegetarians and vegans make you angry (both Paleo and Keto diet proponents tend to be rather anti-vegan), check your thinking—because while vegans may be dogmatic, while you may not like their style in promoting their diet–their diet is using 5 percent of the Earth’s resources to sustain themselves, compared to someone eating the 30 to 60 percent animal proteins of the Paleo and Keto diets.

The healthy ones, the ones who eat whole foods—I’m not talking about the junk food vegans—they’re living with far less impact on the planet.

Maybe we should all thank a vegetarian today, even if you’re personally choosing to eat meat. The direction we’re driving the diet bus, these days, with so many packaged foods and animal foods, isn’t sustainable ecologically.

Why The Keto Diet is Doomed

We can all be friends, and I love the Paleo diet getting people off processed food.

But Paleo’s new, sexy sibling, the Ketogenic diet? It’s just bad news. It’s lipstick on a pig.

(Let the hate mail begin.)

And the worst of the bad are these people selling toxic jugs of “ketones.” Please don’t drink this plastic, petroleum-product garbage. It’s pure marketing, it’s not food, and it’s not good for you.

The Ketogenic diet will get run out of town by scientific studies of long-term results, eventually. Like all the others have. (Eat Right for Your Blood Type, Atkins, and Paleo come to mind.)

And in fact, the ketogenic diet is so similar to Atkins, that many experts have written entire books warning America that the excesses of animal products and the strange “ketones” phenomenon represent a serious threat to public health, based on volumes of published research.

Use your critical thinking skills rather than sign on as a human guinea pig every time the diet and food-manufacturing industries put a new spin on a tired, old debunked concept in front of you.

We already know what people eat who lose weight and keep it off. High-fat, bacon-and-eggs meals with coffee, that’s not it.

Cancer survivor and nutrition researcher Chris Wark says, “The ketogenic diet is like fasting, only with none of the health benefits.”

Ketosis diets promote fasting, which is healthy, but combine it with high fats, which are not.

In effect, the Keto marketers have brought one of the worst, but most popular, diets in the history of diets (Atkins!), back to life. With a twist. (It’s still bacon and coffee for breakfast. But….there’s fasting!)

With the ketogenic diet’s new obsession with “fasting”—diet marketers have taken something good, and made it into something commercial and less than helpful.

(Also, how is not eating from early dinner to late breakfast ‘fasting?’ I was raised in a religious tradition, along with millions of others, where we fasted for 24 hours, once a month. Every child over 8 was encouraged to do this. It’s good for the body and spirit.)

In effect, the Keto marketers have brought one of the worst, but most popular, diets in the history of diets (Atkins!), back to life.

With a twist. (It’s still bacon and coffee for breakfast. But….there’s fasting!)

Haven’t we evolved past this? Eat for ‘ketosis’ and plan to have constipation, bad breath, yo-yo weight loss and gain, and your liver breaking down, just like happened for millions of Atkins sufferers. (And Dr. Robert Atkins himself suffered from heart disease and overweight.)

We already learned with the Atkins Diet that bouncing in and out of ‘ketosis’ is a great way to end up heavier than you started, and possibly with diabetes.

Experts Challenge Ketogenic Myths

Ari Whitten and Wade Smith, MD, said, in their book, The Low-Carb Myth:

“….the notion of everyone eating diets of essentially nothing but fat and protein with only a tiny amount of carbohydrate as a widespread initiative to combat obesity is laughable, since any dietary pattern so extreme as to jettison an entire macronutrient (and simultaneously limit another one) is simply unsustainable for the majority of people.”

My friend, the filmmaker Harry Massey, was convinced by a mutual friend of ours, one of the diet-book authors, to try the new fad, and this is what he told me:

“I went on the ketogenic diet, I felt like crap, and three months later I was diabetic.”

Dr. Joel Fuhrman, MD, 4-time NYT bestselling author, shared these thoughts with me about the ketogenic diet:

“There are many variations of the ketogenic diet, and some are more dangerous than others.  One thing known without question is that the long-term safety of these diets is unknown, because studies would have to follow thousands of people for decades into their 70s and 80s to truly ascertain the true risks.What we do know with certainty from such long-term studies is that as the proportion of products from animal products increase in the diet, so does the death rate from cancer and heart disease.

In other words, the quality and long-term safety of a diet can be determined by the ratio of ‘produce’ calories to ‘animal product’ calories.   We also know that diets richer in antioxidants and phytochemicals–and with a broad variety of such anti-cancer immune-supporting substances–are critical to prevent later-life cancers.

The ketogenic diet generally uses high amounts of oils, which do not contain a significant micronutrient content as a source of calories, thus diluting the micronutrient density of the diet.

In summary, it is not the diet best designed to push the envelope of human longevity, though a ketogenic diet, if well designed, may not be as dangerous as the highly processed-food SAD diet, which contains dangerous ingredients such as white flour, sugar, fried foods, soda and junk food.”

–Joel Fuhrman, MD

Dr. Alan Christianson, NMD, NYT bestselling author, challenges the entire foundation of the diet:

“The ketogenic diet is a legitimate tool for helping reduce seizures among epileptic children who did not respond to medication. We may learn more in the coming years about benefits to other conditions, but most think of it as an easy path to weight loss.

“The underlying assumption people make is that the ketogenic diet makes them better at burning fat. Sadly, it does the exact opposite, and the confusion comes about from using the phrase ‘burning fat’ in two different contexts. Using fat for fuel is called beta-oxidation. Breaking down body fat is called lipolysis. Ketosis is the state in which your liver cannot burn fat for fuel. It can burn fat for fuel only when carbohydrate and protein are also present.

“A ketogenic diet only leads to lipolysis when it contains fewer calories than is needed. This is true of any diet. When a ketogenic diet has more calories than is needed, the extra dietary fat that is initially converted to ketones gets turned into triglycerides and stored as body fat.

“In a controlled human study comparing a ketogenic diet against a high carb, high-sugar diet with the same number of calories, the high-carb diet led to more fat loss than the ketogenic diet.

“Besides the lack of efficacy for weight loss, the ketogenic diet has risks to consider for those seeking to improve their health. The evidence supporting the benefits of dietary fiber, vitamins, and minerals, is undeniable. The ketogenic diet is devoid of fiber, and low in vitamins and minerals.

“Along with a myriad of side effects like fatigue, diarrhea, muscle cramps, and headaches, people on ketogenic diets also run the risks of:

  • hypothyroidism
  • impaired athletic performance

“We may find more medical applications of the ketogenic diet and more ways to mitigate some of the inherent risks and deficiencies it creates. However, ketones are not the ‘preferred’ source of fuel for the human body, nor are they effective hacks for weight loss.”

–Alan Christianson, NMD

In fact, when U.S. News and World Report ranked diets for nutrition and successful weight loss, the Paleo Diet ranked at number 32 out of 40…and Keto tied for dead last, at 39!

One of the most troubling aspects to the new diet fad is the claim that it will cure cancer.

When Dr. Charles Majors first began claiming that the ketogenic diet cures cancer, many experts demanded any longitudinal study with evidence of this. Not only did Dr. Majors fail to produce any, he also recently passed away. Of cancer.

As a counterpoint, the Gerson therapy as a nutritional regimen for cancer, has reversed tens of thousands of cancer patients’ Stage IV cancer for 100 years now, and while it’s not a miracle cure, in this age of toxicity and far more virulent forms of cancer, it is based on far more legitimate concepts.

First, more than 10 glasses a day of fresh pressed green and vegetable juice floods the body with nutrients and oxygen to detoxify and rebuild immune function. (The ketogenic diet is high in fats, but very low in both fiber and micronutrients, as Dr. Christianson pointed out, in the quote above.)

Second, Gerson uses efficacious, non-toxic methods of breaking down and eliminating tumor tissue. (That’s glucose plus oxygen in the cells, using organic plant material in “carbohydrate” foods rich in every known anti-cancer nutrient: the effect is alkalizing and cancer destroying.)

Reconsider Diet Fad-Hopping

I hope you’ll reconsider jumping on every bandwagon, each time a new fad diet comes out.

Greens, vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds.

The “diet before diets” was heavily plant based–rich in greens, vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds.

The “diet before diets” was heavily plant based (as opposed to vegetarian or vegan, which implies no animal products, ever) rich in greens, vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds. Healthy people from all over the world, as documented best in the Blue Zones research, ate quite widely varying diets based on what was available in specific geographic areas.

But all of the Blue Zones eat a heavily plant-based diet, and two of them eat virtually no animal protein at all.

Here’s another quote by cardiologist Dr. Joel Kahn, MD, Wayne State Clinical Professor of Medicine:

“While ketogenic diets prompt the production of ketone bodies as fuel and are of proven value in rare cases of refractory epilepsy, they are also associated with data in several studies suggesting they boost long term risk of premature death. I would not advise the daily use of a long term ketogenic strategy based on animal product consumption.”

If we must attach a name to the “diet” associated with health and longevity, the plant-based and Mediterranean diets are the only ones that consistently show long-term positive outcomes, across thousands of published studies.

The 2013 Yale meta study under the direction of David Katz, MD, reviewed over 10,000 published studies in the field of nutrition over the course of the past decade, and concluded that the most consistent finding is that eating more plants prevents disease.

(Both the Paleo and Keto diets, the way that most people follow them, have people eating even more animal foods than in the Standard American Diet.)

Primarily plant-based diets are what the vast majority of people ate before there were “diets.” (Notice that said “primarily plant-based,” which is different than “vegetarian” or “vegan.”)

Of course there has been wide variety in the specific foods eaten by various peoples, based on their availability, for 3.4 million years of human history.

But degenerative disease was rare in cultures eating whole foods, including mostly carbohydrates, for the entire history of humans, until 100 years ago when the processed food industry was born and the diet industry followed, right behind it.

Why Ketosis Diets Will Fail: The Paleo and Keto Manifesto

 

Robyn Openshaw

–Robyn Openshaw, MSW, is the founder of GreenSmoothieGirl.com and the bestselling author of The Green Smoothies Diet, 12 Steps to Whole Foods, and Vibe: Unlock the Energetic Frequencies of Limitless Health, Love & Success.

Her video masterclass on how she lost 70 pounds, got off 5 prescription drugs, and eliminated 21 diagnosed diseases, eating whole foods (and not dieting), is a free gift to you.

 

 

Disclosure: Affiliate links in the post above help support the GSG mission without costing you extra. I recommend only companies and products that I use myself.

Posted in: 12 Steps To Whole Food, Food Industry, GSG Foods for Health, Health, Nutrition, Research, Weight Loss

248 thoughts on “Why Ketosis Diets Will Fail: The Paleo and Keto Manifesto”

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  1. Lisa says:

    I have been on a LCHF diet for 2 years now. My blood work is perfect and I feel better than I have in 10 years. My Hashimoto’s is completely reversed, and I no longer have that extra 10 pounds that I was never able to shake before. I eat 100% whole foods, including a ton of vegetables with loads of fiber and micronutrients, along with the micronutrients found in bone broth and coconut oils. I eat minimal protein from both animal and plant sources, and a lot of delicious healthy fats. I no longer have to take snacks with me every where I go because my meals sustain me for hours at a time, and I no longer suffer from hypoglycemia and constant hunger. I drink lots of green smoothies, with plenty of fat and protein. If you don’t eat a lot of vegetables and fiber, then you’re doing the keto diet incorrectly! Much love to Robin, I’ve read your book Vibe, and found lots of helpful information that has made my keto diet even better. But keto is good for many people, as long as they’re eating lots and lots of vegetables. I don’t do it because it’s easy, OR because it’s the next big diet fad, I do it because it makes me feel really good and keeps aches, pains and Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis at bay!

  2. cassidystauffer says:

    Hi Robyn! I’m trying my best to get my family as healthy as possible but I have a question I hope you can help me with. While I totally agree with you and we try to eat as plant-based as possible with minimal animal protein my 13 year old son has epilepsy and the side effects from his medication are horrible. He’s been seizure free for 2 years so we are going to try to wean him off of his meds this summer (again!) but I have a strong feeling he will still have seizures. What do you think of of eating a keto diet to control epilepsy so he can stay off of medication? I’m so conflicted because I don’t want him to be on medication but eating keto has it’s downfalls too. What do you think???

    1. Please look into CBD oil and seizures. Also, Dr. Fuhrman is really smart about the way he goes about nutrition.

  3. Vera DeBroeck says:

    Hello, I support a plant based diet with small portions of meat and what would be considered nowadays as too much fat. Not all ketoers are eating the diet incorrectly as you mentioned, saying people are eating far too much protein. Some are, but not all and I would argue if it is even a majority. Most people I have spoke to, face to face, want to prevent any bad reactions and are being very cautious to do it right. As the research has found, that this form of diet has its place and has been around much longer than you think. Body builders have been using keto diet in ther regime since before you and I were kids, I am 39. It was used as early as 500B.C. for epilepsy and again makes note in history in the 1920-30’s.

    I do not pretend to know all, but what I have found by personal experience and that through others like me, is that this diet can treat diabetes. Seriously, look it up. You will be surprised.

    Also, it wasnt designed to help industry. This diet was kept underwraps because it was thought of as too extreme for everyday use. However, with a few tweaks and adjustments you can healthily live and thrive on a keto lifestyle provided you carb cycle and eating 30 to 50g of carbs per day to maintain the fat lost. Honestly, you can just eat the 50g and be done with the cycling. I like to keep my body on its toes so I change the carb intake daily. You can also beat industry with this diet by only getting pasture raised and fed meats and eggs. Farm fresh and organic veggies and fruits, grown locally. All the sites I read to research before I started all boast eating organic locally and pastured raised. No cages or big farm animals or produce. My husband and I plan on sharing a whole cow, from a trusted pastured raised farm, with friends and keep in the deep freeze to save money. So much cheaper to do this way. Getting our own chickens for eggs and meat. Goats too, for milk and a milk cow. So, it can be done…this diet is the easiest for me and my body is actually responding well. Healthy poos and pees, heathly skin, clear mind and so so so much more energy!!

    So, it is worth doing your due diligence and research thoroughly before posting your opinion.

    I do appreciate the time you spend on helping others, and I support and agree with most of what you say. So, please understand this comes from a place of caring in helping you educate others accurately and with a more opened mind. Yes, I just told someone who appears to be a liberal to have an open mind….we forget sometimes too.

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